Want to get a Jehovah’s Witness to listen instead of argue? There’s a simple way to do that. Questions, ask the right question and you’ll get his or her wheels spinning. Ask the wrong question and it’ll end up in a game of bible ping pong that quickly goes nowhere.
How do I know this? Simple. I was a Jehovah’s Witness for sixteen years for starters. And I was asked this question while I was door knocking full time. It worked on me, it can work for you too!
It’s important to remember–doctrine’s don’t save, only Jesus saves. Put doctrines on the back burner. You’ll get nowhere with them. Well, that’s a bit of an exaggeration. Most Jehovah’s Witnesses are not willing to engage in debate, most are so indoctrinated we can’t reach them. The key to waking up a Jehovah’s Witness is to help them see the Watchtower is not God’s chosen organization. It is not the “one true religion” like they claim. How do we do that?
It’s imperative not to attack the Watchtower. No matter how much you’d like to, no matter how much ammunition you may have. They will instantly view you as not only a hater and apostate (even if you never were one of Jehovah’s Witnesses) but they will also view you as being “used by the devil” to take them “out of the truth”. All your well thought out arguments will fall on deaf ears, as they say “we are not here to argue or debate” or “we are looking for sheep-like people” (meaning someone who will simply believe whatever they say without question.)
The key is showing them that what the Watchtower teaches does not agree with the Bible. There are thousands if not millions of Jehovah’s Witnesses who honestly believe they are serving God by peddling those magazines door to door. Once they find out, some of the more honest hearted actually do go and investigate, either looking up the information or asking their elders (think Pastor or Minister).
I’ve used this question successfully with scores of Jehovah’s Witnesses, and it has caused a good number of them to leave the Watchtower organization. To be totally honest most of them were only bible students, not yet baptized, and still had some thinking ability, although it has also worked with several members who were baptized many years. It is much harder with someone who has already taken the plunge and patience is the key. By that time they are totally indoctrinated. More on that later.
The key question is this–What would you do, (pause for emphasis, it reels them in, getting them to stop arguing and listen) if you found out, that what the Watchtower teaches is not what the bible teaches? Who would you obey? Jehovah God or the Watchtower? (They like it, and view you more favorably if you use Jehovah God rather than just God)
When I was asked this question, I answered honestly and said I said I would change my religion! And I sincerely meant that! (a different topic was used, and was not successful, more on this later) Most Jehovah’s Witnesses will say the Watchtower does not disagree. (They don’t know this teaching although it is “official”) So ask again, what if it did? Then what? Jehovah God or the Watchtower organization? If they say Jehovah God, then great! You can start showing them. If they refuse to answer, or change the subject, then sharing your testimony or a remarkable answer to prayer might work better. Although you will probably not see any change in the JW at your door, it leaves a lasting impression. Sadly, some of them say they’d rather be in the watchtower right or wrong than be out!!
The Scripture I use is 1 Tim 2:5, 6 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus, (NIV)
Ask them is Jesus your mediator? (They will say yes) Then tell them how happy you are to hear that. Everybody loves a little praise. Tell them Jesus is your mediator too and that you agree on this. (Finding a point of agreement is also very helpful).
Then you can let the hammer drop. It’s a shame the watchtower does not agree with this bible teaching. Instead the Watchtower says Jesus is the Mediator only for the 144,000. So who then is the mediator for the great crowd?
It’s important to have the Watchtower quotes to show them this, otherwise they will typically call you a liar, or if they are nicer, they will tell you that you are simply not familiar with their beliefs, and direct you to their website. The fabulous part of that is, the actual watchtower quotes are found on their website!
Another important point, always, always, use the latest Watchtower quotes. Jehovah’s Witnesses have this thing called “new light”, for when their teachings change. So older quotes just won’t work, and they will view you as an apostate or tell you that you’ve gone to “apostate sites” because the older quotes are not found online. (Watchtower is making older publications no longer available, whitewashing their history and older teachings.)
The latest quotes should be present first, because the Jehovah’s Witnesses believe in something called “old light”. According to their teachings, the light gets brighter is interpreted to mean truth changes, therefore older quotes are suspect, even when taken from their own literature! It’s a thought stopping procedure. This way a Jehovah’s Witness can dismiss failed prophesies the Watchtower has made with the simple statement:
That’s old light. The bible says the light gets brighter.
This is the Watchtower’s misinterpretation of Proverbs 4:18:
But the path of the righteous is like the bright morning light
That grows brighter and brighter until full daylight. Prov 4:18 NWT
The latest quotes about the mediator issue can be found in the 2014 Watchtower and 2013 Watchtower along with their “Insight into the Scriptures” (a 2 volume set, think encyclopedia of accepted teachings).
- The October 2014 Watchtower magazine says that Jesus is only the mediator for those in the new covenant and only the 144,000 are in the new covenant. The article clearly lays it out. So right on Jw.org you can see Jesus is not your mediator as a Jehovah’s Witness.
Par. 15 After instituting the Lord’s Evening Meal, Jesus made a covenant with his faithful disciples, often referred to as the Kingdom covenant. (Read Luke 22:28-30.) Unlike other covenants, in which Jehovah is one of the parties to the covenant, this is a personal covenant between Jesus and his anointed followers.
Par. 16 Thus, the Kingdom covenant is made with the 144,000 anointed Christians.
2. That faithful slave is the channel through which Jesus is feeding his true followers in this time of the end.
It is vital that we recognize the faithful slave. Our spiritual health and our relationship with God depend on this channel.—Matt. 4:4; John 17:3.”
https://www.jw.org/…/who-is-faithful-discreet-slave/
3. “He mediates the new covenant between God and those taken into the new covenant, the congregation of spiritual Israel. The total number of those who are finally and permanently sealed is revealed in Revelation 7:4-8 as 144,000.” Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 2 p.362 Mediator http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200002957 Those for Whom Christ is Mediator.
Older quotes are even more clear, however the Jehovah’s Witness is unlikely to accept these at first. He or she might say you simply don’t understand what the Watchtower is saying, in which case these older and more clear quotes can come in quite handy.
“So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the “mediator” only for anointed Christians.”
Watchtower 1979 Apr 1 p.31
“Likewise, the Greater Moses, Jesus Christ, is not the Mediator between Jehovah God and all mankind. He is the Mediator between his heavenly Father, Jehovah God, and the nation of spiritual Israel, which is limited to only 144,000 members.” Worldwide Security Under the “Prince of Peace” (1986) pp.10-11
After you have presented the quotes, encourage them to ask their elders. Encourage them to go onto their website and research it for themselves. They may look puzzled. This is because they are suddenly realizing you cannot be lying to them if you are encouraging them to ask questions and research this.
JW Inform 
Very interesting post, thanks! That page on jw.org is quite a read of Scripture-twisting and total avoidance of context. They’re basically saying that all of Scripture points to the organization, not really to Christ Himself. Question for you: in your experience, do most JWs consider themselves to be “Spiritual Israel” or just the 144,000? Thanks.
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There are only approximately 14,000 who consider themselves to be anointed, though many are partaking secretly at home. (The organization comes against you if you partake, I know this from personal experience) The watchtower said decades ago, the number of those partaking would go down, since that time it has increased by 4,000! Sadly most Jw have no idea what it is to be born-again, and feel the New Testament is not for them, its written specifically for the anointed. Very sad. They don’t know what it is to have prayers answered, to have a personal relationship with God.
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Thank you for your response. That is helpful. So, secretly many of them believe they are part of the 144,000? By partake do you mean they are taking Communion secretly at home?
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Yes many of them are, secretly partaking at home. They know the elders will come against them for partaking, and others will judge them as unworthy and ‘mark’ them, no long socializing with them. I was a partaker, and was privy to how the elders came against the partakers.
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Out of the supposedly 8 million Jehovah’s Witness, they report only 14,000 partakers, some are doing so at home, but as you can see, most do not. Most Jehovah’s Witnesses are not born again believers, do not have the heavenly hope. The “hope” the watchtower holds out for them is PERHAPS they may be saved and live through armageddon, IF they work hard enough. Then they must remain obedient, working hard, for the 1,000 year reign of Christ, and THEN they must remain faithful through when satan is let loose for a little while. ONLY THEN is a Jehovah’s Witness saved. They actually HAVE no hope or belief in salvation, they live in fear and dread, always HOPING they are “doing ENOUGH” to EARN their salvation. The people are riddled with fear, dread and doubt. I remember it well, the often spoke of it.
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No, most Jw consider themselves to be of the great crowd and are not born-again. Those who *are* born again consider themselves to be of the 144,000 or “Spiritual Israel”. Then of course the Spirit guides us through the Scriptures and we see that the watchtower does not agree with the Bible. Some remain inside to wake up family and friends, some are still blind for a time, believing the lie “Jehovah will straighten it out in time” like I was, and others leave right away. Each case is different. I was a partaker, but believed the lie, knew Jesus was NOT an angel, but still believed it was God’s organization, until the Lord Himself led me out. And yes the organization has placed *itself* in the place of Christ, pointing to *itself* for salvation, all the while *knowing* this is idolatry! Notice this from 2 contradictory watchtower quotes (notice same month, same year!) 1)–“We cannot take part in any modern version of IDOLATRY,,attributing salvation to a person OR an ORGANIZATION.” Wt 1990 11/1 pg 26
2) “They must appreciate that identifying themselves with Jehovah’s organization is essential to their salvation.” Kingdom Ministry 1990 Nov p.1
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Interesting question! They view themselves as the Israelites, modern spiritual Israel, replacement theology. Yet if you ask a Jw are they part of Spiritual Israel, they would think you mean the “anointed class”, they view themselves as a lesser class, not worthy to be chosen for eternal life in heaven, a lesser earthly class, yet Jw as a whole were chosen by God to replace unfaithful Jews who rejected Jesus. Hope that helps.
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Yes, that is exactly what I was wondering about. I’ve asked JWs what they meant when they were talking about spiritual Israel, and they wouldn’t give me a straight answer. But it’s so important to have terms like that defined before discussing any passage of Scripture or doctrinal issue. So, from what you’re saying, they can kinda adjust their “meaning” to whatever context they want to make a point. Very interesting if they consider themselves to be modern spiritual Israel because most of even ancient Israel died in unbelief and idolatry, and went to hell. It as always been a remnant of believers who have truly had the circumcision of the heart (true faith).
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Yes! They believe God has abandoned the Jews, and now “they” are the chosen elect of God, the anointed are now “spiritual Israel”. And yes! They change their theology as it suits them, whatever in the bible seems to agree with them on the surface (always out of context) they say is literal, whatever disagrees with them, they say is symbolic. So all Jesus warnings of hell for example are symbolic. Average Jw probably *can’t* give you a direct answer, as they don’t know much about the anointed class and what they are supposed to believe. I was a partaker, so was a bit more familiar with what they taught on this subject. During the late 1980’s they were teaching at our book study, that the 144,000 + 1 (Jesus) were ALL the mediators!!! They don’t speak of this much anymore but I remember it vividly, it was drummed into our heads week after week.
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Ironically, both JW’s and a lot of Jewish people have ONE tragic coincidence in common…… Neither group believes in the deity of Christ. But WORSE in the case of JW’s who refer to themselves as CHRISTIANS. Christians (the real deal) back in the first century believed in Christ as 1 Tim 3:16 says, “God, manifest in the flesh.”
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Most Jw do NOT consider themselves to be “Spiritual Israel” that is for the “anointed class”. The great crowd has resentment, and jealousy, and judge the anointed, I heard this often in comments made, sad really. Although some did ask how to have a close relationship with God. I was happy to tell them. Churches make it so easy, while the organization makes it nearly impossible! Breaks my heart, so many of us reach out to them in Facebook groups trying to help them.
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I’m not surprised that many would have resentment, jealousy and judgement of the “anointed class.” Having classes of people at all flies directly in the face of Scripture and tells the average JW that he or she is of lesser value to Jehovah.
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What book was teaching that Christ+144,000 wre the mediators?
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I don’t recall the book, I recall the multiple conversations at the book study, with the elders teaching this, late 1980’s,
It has been taught numerous times, it was a doctrine called the manifested sons of God where Jesus and the church are a composite saviour
I think the Four Presidents book also has a section on it in the appendix.
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Yes they are secretly partaking at home. And many of them have come to realize the 144,000 is a symbolic number, that a heavenly reward is held out to *all* who believe in the Lord Jesus.
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That seems to be a really important thing to show them – that Revelation is an apocalyptic work, filled with symbolism, especially when it comes to the numbers. The early churches that Revelation was written to would have clearly understood this. But, while they seem to understand that about some other aspects of Revelation, they suddenly go literal with the 144,000. Of course a lot of Christians can take things too literally from Revelation as well, so I’m sure that doesn’t help any!
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Yes, they say the 12 tribes are symbolic, as they don’t match the 12 tribes from the Old Testament, the 12,000 out of each tribe is symbolic, that they are males is symbolic, virgins is symbolic,etc but take 12 symbolic number, times 12,000 symbolic number and *poof* Literal number??? This makes NO SENSE!
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My birth mother has been a JW since 1974. She is still trying to convert me from my strong Chrisrian faith with the same old questions about blood, and war etc
I now concentrate on core issues around Jesus and salvation and trust God. Most of the rest is just red herring to take us away from core teaching.
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I agree! I often ask them what would you DO if your found out, the Watchtower does NOT agree with the bible? Then show them the mediator issue, which I posted about as well, including Watchtower quotes that SAY Jesus is ONLY the mediator for the 144,000 in direct conflict with 1 Tim. 2:5.
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AMEN!!!! A lot of red herrings in that barrel. NOW I understand what Jesus meant when He said those who are taught of God will come to ME. JW’s claim their doctrines are Biblically based. Well the film Man on the Moon was BASED on the life of Andy Kaufman and I’ll wager you dollars to donuts that the producers of that movie were more accurate about Andy’s life than JW’s are about God.
If your mom persists in the blood thing, ask her about God’s forgiveness and show her where it talks about the ONE and ONLY sin God WILL NOT forgive because it’s a sin people bring on themselves when they continue to resist the very one who will give them eternal life.(the Holy Spirit)
“Okay, mom, for the sake of discussion,let’s say you’re right on the blood doctrine.”
“It has nothing to do with me. I didn’t start it. It’s right out of God’s word.”
“But doesn’t the Bible also talk about God’s LOVE and FORGIVENESS? Where is that forgiveness if you’re told to shun me if I accept a blood transfusion?” Maybe ask her about Romans 5:8 . In addition, you might also remind her that the Old Testament is FULL of Wars. Some even sanctioned by God. And the biggie, the BATTLE of ARMAGEDDON will be HIS doing, too.
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I believe there’s a saying that goes, “Reach too far out on a limb and you’re liable to fall out of your tree.” That’s EXACTLY what JW’s do with the whole 144,000 issue. The ONLY book in the Bible that mentions the 144,000 is REVELATION which is YET FUTURE. So how in the world can JW’s get away with connecting that to the gospel accounts of the Last Supper.
Two things that prevent the JW’s from rightly claiming this group as theirs.
*The entire group (144,000) is made up of MEN. JEWISH MEN. Some evangelists refer to them as 144,00 Apostle Pauls who will be preaching world wide during that most horrific period in world history. The point is, the JW’s have applied scripture ERRONEOUSLY to themselves on more occasions than I can count. Seriously, even my cell phone calculation can’t do that kind of math! 😉 The most well known case of interpre….that is MISinterpreting scripture to their benefit is Isaiah 43:10,11, where the phrase, “You are My witnesses….” is said to apply to them (JWs) rather than or as well as, (not quite sure about that) the literal nation of Israel.
Interestingly, they forget about (or don’t know or acknowledge) Acts 1:8 where JESUS said, “You will be MY Witnesses in Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria and to the uttermost part of the earth.
JW’s INSIST Jesus made NO claims of deity. Well, this verse unto itself is a pretty lofty insinuation. Jesus is insisting that HE is entitled to witnesses and people to preach HIS message just like JEHOVAH was. Had He made that statement before His crucifixion, the religious leaders would have built a catapult for the express purpose of dropping a boulder on this guy! They knew Jewish law! And they definitely KNEW Isaiah 43:10,11 and Who was saying it! For an archangel (so JW’s believe) to make such an audacious claim would have warranted immediate execution. BUT…..it was AFTER His resurrection, which establish His right to make that very claim,
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Amen! Thank you for your comment!
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Gosh! Thank ya kindly. But I can’t take too much credit. JW doctrine makes it TOO easy.
Kim and Mkey uploaded three parts of an audio between a Christian and a JW during a BIBLE Study (I believe that! Thousands wouldn’t). Well, this guy was likening Biblical events from the OLD TESTAMENT as if they ALSO applied to the WT. If I had Brother T’s nerve in my bunion, I’d be wanting to cut my foot off right now! OUCH!
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Agreed! The right question, asked in the spirit of genuine curiosity and prayerful hope that such a question will hope to force the person’s mind off the well-worn mind-set. I asked about their 1 Tim 3:16 that says, “…He was manifest in the flesh…” Who is the HE of 1 Tim 3:16?
And I’m working on a project, dealing with the claims of Christ, as JW’s don’t believe Jesus made any such claims. Then why the snitfits among the religious leaders? (See John 5:18) . At the same time, though, we always have to remember that we can’t SAVE anyone! All we can do is plant the right seed, in hope that someone else will water and the person WILL investigate, because their curiosity can’t take it anymore ! They NEED to know.
FEAR, SADLY, is ever present. Especially if the person you’re talking to has family in this organization . What could happen if they find out what they don’t want to know, versus the family they want to keep in contact with. It’s TRAGIC, what the WT hierarchy sees as ‘Gross sin’ (apostasy) and what they’re willing to shrug at, by saying, “Leave it with Jehovah.”
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Funny, the Jews knew EXACTLY what Jesus was claiming-“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”John 10:33. Jw also have a hard time explaining doubting Thomas, who in the Greek said The Lord of me and the God of me.John 20:28 IF this was blasphemy, an expression of surprise, as Jw claim, surely Jesus would have corrected him, instead He commends him!
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We are SOOOOO on the same page!
While I’m here, can you help me out with a couple of verses that JW’s jump on…. Eph 1:3 and 2 Cor 1:3 where it talks about “The GOD and Father of…. ” I’m sure, when you were a JW, you jumped on verses like that with both feet!
Thanks! 😀
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That’s what I asked, and the poor dear deluded lady said that Jesus rebuked Thomas for being slow on the uptake. Jesus didn’t rebuke Thomas at all. He did say, in effect, “Congrats,Thomas, you figured it out because I’m standing right in front of you after being DEAD for a few days. There are those who will believe in Me without even laying eyes on Me, like you are.”
One verse I would LOVE to ask about would be John 14:1 That statement is LOADED with meaning. None of which they want to admit. “Believe in God, believe also in ME” ? If Jesus was not who He claimed (and this verse is a HUGE claim) then isn’t this IDOLATRY?
If you or I went around saying that, we’d be tossed out of church, or, at the very least, referred to a shrink.
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When getting into Ephesians 1:3 and 2 Cor. 1:3 we get into the eternal sonship of the Son, and the Father, Son relationship in the Godhead, not something a Jw understands as they do not accept the Trinity. I ask them since God calls the Son,,,God, in Hebrews 1:8 how can we argue with that? But of course their bible has been changed, so I much prefer using Revelation 5:13, 14 where BOTH The Father AND the Lamb are worshiped, since only God can be worshiped what does this tell us? They have yet to answer and are often shocked to see this.
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As you can see from this following commentary, it gets complicated for a Jw very quickly! Jw are taught Modalism, not the Trinity, thus when a Christians says Jesus is God, what a Jw HEARS is Jesus is the Father! I like to Make Sure they Realize this is NOT what we are saying! This alone is a huge feat! That’s why I use Revelation 5:13,14 BOTH are Worshiped in heaven, and the New World Translation USES the word WORSHIP in this verse!!
Ephesians 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
God, the first person in the Trinity, is the God of Christ, as Christ is man and Mediator; he chose and appointed him to be the Mediator, and made a covenant with him as such; he formed and prepared an human nature for him, and anointed it with the Holy Ghost above measure, and supported it under all his trials and sufferings, and at last glorified it: and Christ, as man, prayed to him as his God, believed, hoped, and trusted in him as such, and loved him as in such a relation to him, and cheerfully obeyed his commands. And the same is the Father of Christ, as Christ is God; as such he is the Son of God; not by creation, as angels and Adam, nor by adoption, as saints, but by natural generation; he being the only begotten of the Father, his own proper Son, of the same nature and perfections with him, and equal to him. http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/ephesians-1-3.html
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This is a MAJOR help! Thank you so much!!!
This has been a busy time. I’m taking a computer course so I can get a better job, but I’ve been going hither and yon all week. Got a used pair of ROLLER SKATES you’re not doing anything with? 😉
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Deutoronomy 4:2, Revelation 22:18-21, Proverbs 30:5,6 In keeping with these exortations it is impossible to even remotely confuse Jesus as God in the Bible, he is ‘as’ a God, a Saviour, a Son, Arch Angel, Redeemer, King in Heaven, but NOT God in the Bible, absolutely NOT the Father. Believing such a twist on scripture is no better than believing in the seven wizards of Warwick that Jehovahs Witnesses seem to worship, or the magical underwear of other denominations of Christianity. It is all extrabiblical amending to scripture, which makes clear who Jesus Christ was and is. The trinity was meant to teach the unity of God the father, Christ the Son and the Holy Spirit in their united works on our behalf, never even remotely stating that they are literaly one and the same. This ‘Jesus is God’ teaching is what happens when you have tens of thousands of Christian denominations showing up everywhere and the vast majority sheperded by men and women who clearly turn Holy Scripture into High School Shakespeare to be philosifized over and intepreted by best guesses. Let the Bible speak for itself, once someone says “what the Bible means to say here is…” it is time to show them your back. The Bible was written for us, not to us, no one here is an Israelite or member of the congregation in Corinth during Pauls time. Read your Bible daily, get to know the designer, creator, and giver of life, what his personality is, what he tolerates and what he doesnt and make a genuine effort to live accordingly.
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Sorry I didn’t get back to you sooner. Jesus clearly stated “I am the alpha, the omega, the Almighty” Now if you’re using the new world translation, you’ll insist this is Jehovah, the Father, speaking, however if you skip down to Revelation 1:12-13 You’ll see John *turns around* to *see* who *was* speaking and identifies Him as the Son of Man, who is the son of man? Also Jesus speaks again in verses 17,18 says again I am the first (alpha) I am the last (omega) I Was DEAD now I am alive! When did Jehovah die? Who is coming on the clouds? That’s who is speaking in verse 8. If Jesus is only “as” a God, then you have 2 Gods, Jehovah says He created no other gods, Isa 43:10 last sentence and Isa 45:5. You’re argument is not with me but with Jesus. Jesus also said If you do not believe I AM you will die in your sins (the “he” is not there in the Greek). The Jews knew exactly what Jesus was claiming thats why they sought to kill Him. Isaiah 9:6 identifies Jesus as Mighty GOD, not mighty angel. Read the new testament as a child, accept what it says, don’t have your mind made up ahead of time, ask the Lord to reveal truth to you. May the Lord bless you.
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Hi Sally! Do you know if there are any tables that list verses that deal with Jesus’ Humanity AND Deity? That would be a huge help! I’m gonna check on line. I’ll post the link if I find it first. Thanks! 📖
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https://carm.org/jesus-two-natures I see a chart on the page at Carm website!
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Thanks Sally!
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you can friend me on facebook, I’m on it daily, I don’t always check my messages on this site (hope to do better with it now tho)
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I don’t do Facebook anymore. I have a site but I’ll be deleting it soon, as I’ll have to get rid of my internet at the end of the month. Thanks anyway.
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If you will be keeping your phone, and you’d like to stay in touch, you can call or text me if you’d like?
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I’m gonna write down all those verses and create a table for easy study.
I’m going to be leaving my job in a few months and I really cannot wait!!! Too much stress. It will be such fun to enjoy the summer by doing a proper Bible study and being able to share Christ with JW friends more effectively. Thanks, again, for the link!👏☕
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Carm is a great site, I use it often! Oh niiice! I am retired and get to study daily, doing Systematic Theology now, love it!! Jw facts is one of the best for the history/teachings etc of JW. Enjoy your summer!!!
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“God, the first person in the Trinity, is the God of Christ” Do you even read what you write? If God is the God of Christ,this means they are 2 different people. Yhwh is the God of Christ. TWO people,not one. If you cant see this,this explains WHY you dont understand what i explained about Armageddon. But you blocked me on FB,because you cant handle someone disagreeing with you,even though you ASKED me for my opinion.
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Yes of course, I both read it, write it and understand it. The Son is in subjection to the Father, even while also being part of the Godhead. At the end of the thousand years the Son turns all things over to the Father. The Son is both God and man, He is our High Priest, our Mediator, our Savior, our Redeemer. He offers up our prayers to the Father. I suggest doing some research on the Trinity.
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So, was Jesus telling the truth or lying when he said, “I and the Father are one,” John 10:30? Or “…before Abraham was born, I am,” John 8:58? When he says “I am,” Jesus is referring to the conversation God had with Moses when Moses asked God what he should say when the Israelites ask him what is the name of “the one who sent me,” Exodus 3:13. God told Moses in v.14, I AM WHO I AM.” And, “…you are to say to the Israelites, ‘I AM has sent me”.
When Jesus said to the Pharisees, “I AM”, in John 8:58, why did they then pick up stones to stone him in v. 59? And again in John 10:30-33, when Jesus said “I and the Father are one,” the Jewish opponents picked uo stones to stone Him?
They said it was because Jesus claimed to be God.
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“God, the first person in the Trinity, is the God of Christ” If Yhwh is the God of Christ,this means they are 2 different people. Yhwh is the God of Christ,because Yhwh GAVE Jesus life. If God did not give Jesus life,he would not exist. This proves there are TWO people,not one. Yhwh GAVE to Christ,what he did not have:life. Without Yhwh giving Christ life,he would not exist. Thus Thwh is GOd over Christ in EVERY respect. If they are equal or a trinity,which is a CATHOLIC WORD,why do you not ever say,Christ was Yhwh’s God. This means Yhwh is ABOVE Christ.
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Of course they are two different people, there IS a father and there IS a son, and BOTH are worshiped, see Revelation 5:13,14. Those who say they are exactly equal in ALL respects don’t fully understand the Trinity, the Son is in subjection to the Father, even in the Godhead.
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The problem with the word SUBJECTION is that it is seen to mean INFERIOR. However, in Britain for example, the populace of England and /or Great Britain are the SUBJECTS of the Queen of England. But are these people BY NATURE INFERIOR to the Queen of England? NO.
In Luke, Jesus was SUBJECT to Mary and Joseph. Was He inferior to them, by nature? NOPE!
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But what if they say NO hes not my mediator hes only the mediator for the heavenly class then what do i say???
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Was the bible LYING then at 1 Timothy 2:5? They will generally agree that God being so Holy, Pure and Perfect, we as sinners cannot approach God directly WITHOUT a mediator. Ask those who agree with the watchtower, WHO then is your mediator? (Wt says hanging onto the skirt of a Jew aka the watchtower is what saves them) WHERE does the bible tell us hanging onto the watchtower organization is what gives us these ‘benefits’? (The watchtower says the great crowd reaps ‘benefits’ by sticking closely to the gov body, anointed) ALways ask, WHERE does the bible tell us this?
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I think I would go to 1 Tim 2:5, read it aloud, and ask the person to show me where it says that Jesus is only the mediator to the ‘heavenly class’ ?
There is also a place in Revelation about great crowd being that which no one can number. And they are standing before the throne. Ex-JW /author David Reed asked a JW lady about this issue once and the woman said they are on they earth, even though the text CLEARLY pointed out that they were Before the throne . In BOTH cases, JW heirarchy inflicts doctrine that isn’t in the text.
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The great crowd in heaven, Revelation 19:1
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https://www.gci.org/Jesus/dualnature Another link to the same subject. I made up a quick, make shift table to write down those verses. Will enjoy looking them up.
The problem is that JW’s dance around even the most obvious scriptures (John 20:28, 29) with the verbal footwork that would make Fred Astaire look like he had two left feet. I’ve had JW’s tell me that Thomas was NOT calling Jesus God. If I had to have surgery for my jaw every time it fell to the floor, after that line, I’d bankrupt Health Canada! OoooooKAY! “My Lord and my God.” is NOT referring to Jesus as God. Then WHAT is that verse saying?!? The mind boggles!
That said, Mark 1:1 is easy for them to get around. JW’s have no issues with Jesus being the Son of God But they see Jesus’ role as Son as being INFERIOR. But even in a HUMAN context this doesn’t make sense. Sons and daughters are EQUAL in NATURE to their parents. We take after our parents (for better or worse) in appearance and personality. Philipians 2:5-11 sets the story straight but, again, JW’s do not ….cannot admit to what they are seeing because such an admission would cost them dearly as far as loss of family and friends.
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Interesting that the Lord did not correct Thomas, but instead commended him. Either the Lord is crazy, a liar or God, as He claimed to be. Jw do not accept or believe what Jesus said, they prefer the watchtower god. Jesus said if you do not believe I AM (the he is not there in the Greek) you will DIE In your sins. The Jews knew exactly what Jesus was claiming, thats why they sought to stone Him, “We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”John 10;33 The Jw make Jesus out to be a liar, or the Jews of the day to misunderstand what the text so clearly says. Jw disagree with Isa 9:6 and John 1:1 (carefully rewritten in their so called bible) Rev 1:7,8 is so clear, that also had to be rewritten, but verses 12,13 John identifies the speaker as teh Son of Man, shame Jw don’t read the entire chapter. Jw do not obey Phil 2:10 I often ask them why? Jw do not believe John 3:3 I often ask them why.
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Agreed! 1000, 000% I have attempted to share this view with JW friends when we dealt with the text of John 20:28, 29 But somehow, they turned it around to have Jesus commending Thomas for recognizing that he was Messiah but nothing more.
Then there’s the text in Revelation 1;8 where Jesus calls Himself the First and the Last . You wouldn’t believe the tale they spun on that verse! Which makes me ask; Is it Worth even TRYING to talk to them? These people are DETERMINED to eradicate the Deity of Christ despite JESUS being all over the Bible~ specifically the NEW TESTAMENT.
On one hand, I have to remember that they are under deception. Their mind is in a fog and their collective doctrine is dictated by 8 egomaniacs in Brooklyn who will NOT take second place in the minds of their captive adherents to the Deity of Christ But it’s still so FRUSTRATING!!!! Have you ever had moments when you throw your hands in the air and shout I GIVE UP!!! ? After listening to the way they messed with Revelation 1:8, I’m tempted to just walk away from the whole deal. I don’t think I will be it’s a major temptation some days.
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To go along:
2 Theselonians 2:3-4 says
“Let no one lead you astray in any way, because it will not come unless the apostasy comes first and the man of lawlessness gets revealed, the son of destruction. He stands in opposition and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he sits down in the temple of God, publicly showing himself to be a god.”
“Is it presumptuous of Jehovah’s Witnesses to point out that they alone have God’s backing? Actually, no more so than when the Israelites in Egypt claimed to have God’s backing in spite of the Egyptians’ belief, or when the first-century Christians claimed to have God’s backing to the exclusion of Jewish religionists.” Watchtower 2001 Jun 1 p.16
“Similarly, Jehovah is using only one organization today to accomplish his will. To receive everlasting life in the earthly Paradise we must identify that organization and serve God as part of it.” Watchtower 1983 Feb 15 p.
Acts 4:12 (speaking of Jesus) Furthermore, there is no salvation in anyone else, for there is not another name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must get saved.)
Where does it say in the Bible, that we need a middle man, an organization or religious institution to guarantee our salvation? To the contrary, we are told to beware of false teachers who lead astray! To test the “inspired statements” to see if they are true. 1 John 4:1
What is a false teacher? Someone who claims their source of information is from God himself, and yet that information turns out to be flawed and inaccurate? Is that right? If God only reveals only truth and good “food at the proper time” through his “faithful slave” (which is now considered to be only the Governing Body of Jehovah’s Witnesses, but formerly ALL the anointed), why is it necessary for that information to be revised? The new Ezekiel book has an entire section devoted to just SOME of the latest revisions. Is this considered “New light”?
2 Corinthians 11:12-14 “12 But what I am doing I will continue to do, in order to eliminate the pretext of those who are wanting a basis for being found equal to us in the things about which they boast. 13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder, for Satan himself keeps disguising himself as an angel of light.”
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Truth does not change, truth does not contradict itself, truth does not need revising. In a court of law, liars are found out because their story changes. Wt is ever changing its teachings and contradicting itself. Lies.
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True. And God doesn’t change His teachings, ever. First Peter 1:24-25 quotes Isaiah as he says, “All people are like grass and their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our Lord (God) endures forever,” Isaiah 40:8. And Peter finishes v.25 with, “And this is the word that was preached to you.” Peter had said what had been preached to them in 1 Peter 1:3-5.
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